Scottish independence referendum should trigger EU vote
by Ian McKenzie
We now know that there will be a referendum on Scotland's relationship with the rest of Britain by the end of 2014. The three Westminster-based party leaders want to rule out a third, so-called "devo-max" option; believing that a straight 'in or out' question will deny Alex Salmond a face-saving result, given the current lack of support for total independence in the opinion polls. Whatever final form the ballot paper takes, a new dimension of debate is beginning to open up in north of the border as some Scots - including former Scottish National Party deputy leader Jim Sillars - argue that a referendum on the relationship with Westminster will also require a say on where Scotland stands concerning the European Union.
With the passing of the Lisbon treaty, it is clear that rightly or wrongly - depending on your point of view - the EU now accounts for a growing percentage of the legislation of the member states and restricts the capacity for action from locally elected politicians. For example, when the Scottish government announced it wanted to charge students from other parts of the United Kingdom full fees, the European Commission ruled it could not apply the same policy to students from other EU countries.
Attention is beginning to focus on whether or not a Scotland separated from the UK, but still inside the EU, would have to sign-up for euro membership as a new applicant country. Given the new rules, giving the commission the right to determine levels of public spending for eurozone members, it is unclear to what extent Scotland would be a truly independent nation in this context. As the European dimension of the independence debate gathers momentum, demand will grow for a second referendum on EU membership in the advent of a vote to quit the UK.
The fact that the Scottish people are being given a say on their collective constitutional future, and the increasing European focus on domestic politics, will increase support throughout the rest of Britain for a referendum on EU membership. As the EU seeks to centralise new powers to try and stabilise the single currency, which will have implications for even non-eurozone countries, the British people should be given a say one way or the other on where they want ultimate political power over them to lie. The People's Pledge, the UK campaign for an EU referendum is a broad-based organisation drawing support from across the political parties and all shades of opinion.
It already has the support of 70 British MPs and 90,000 people have registered with the campaign. Pressure will build this year as demand for a democratic say for the British people grows. It is ironic that Alex Salmond, together with the leaders of the three major UK-wide parties, supports a referendum on Scottish independence - but opposes one for the UK over EU membership. That contradictory position is going to be increasingly difficult for him, or any other party leader, to hold.
Ian McKenzie is communications director at the People's Pledge campaign group, in the United Kingdom
It is wise to be cautious about what supporters and opponents of Scottish independence claim about the impact the vote will have, but people are nevertheless hungry for information about the momentous decsion, writes Jim Gallagher
I have a question on this very subject. I'm very keen on Scottish Independence, but fear it may lead to membership of the EU and the euro. Can someone please assure me that if a vote for independence was forthcoming, would a referendum on EU membership also be given to the people of Scotland - giving them the opportunity to opt-out. An answer from an SNP politician would be be welcome. It could mean the difference between a "yes" or a "no" vote. I don't want release from Westmister to be replaced by Brussels rule.
Frank Williamson - Aberdeen
Considering that after 01/11/14, the UK will be split into "regions" as per the Lisbon Treaty, with Scotland being ruled from Europe in any case; I think this whole devolution movement is a waste of time. There won't be a UK for Scotland to leave.
Nyree Wadman - UKIP Guildford
To Frank. Elected mayors came about through the EU's Localism Bill that has now become an act through our parliament. This act has allowed the EU to have the sovereignty authority to divide our great nation and country of England into EU regions. The Localism Act is recorded in the Council of Europe's Website, where a little tick is put when the once national country's have completed their tasks of dividing their countries into EU regions. It is also on the United Nation's website, but from the dates it has gone upwards to the UN and not downwards. These you can check for yourself.
Scotland is already classed as an EU region as is London, Wales and Northern Ireland. Proof re Scotland? From the practical point of view, can we really afford this extra layer of governance - which we have never had before in all this countries' existence? An elected mayor with full cabinet and all the entourage that goes with it. London kept its Lord Mayor too as will Birmingham. We are already paying billions of British pounds for the first extra layer of governance we never had before 1972.
My final point, just how much longer will the people continue to pay for all these extra layers of governance - especially, when our own constitution makes very clear that in terms of various recent acts by parliament to ratify incorporation of the UK into the EU, the Act of Supremacy is quite unequivocal: "No foreign prince, person, prelate, state or potentate hath or ought to have any jurisdiction, power, superiority, pre-eminence or authority ecclesiastical or spiritual within this realm."
Anne Palmer - Staffordshire
Don't believe all that you hear re the opinion polls and independence.
To Frank, in Aberdeen. I have already put your question to my local MSP and I am eagerly awaiting an answer.
M O''Halloran - Wishaw Lanarkshire
The sooner we are free from the EU nonsnese the better. It seems that it can intrude even on our own democracy and for one of the oldest democracies n the world that is quite ridiculous
Peter Clarke - Grayshott Surrey
Alex Salmond wishes to have only the good parts of leaving UK. He must be made to pay his share of leaving, part of the national debt, removing nuclear subs etc, and he will lose the unwarranted amount of money he gets for each Scottish person. He would also have to allow English students to study free - same as other EU nationals (goodee! for my grandchildren).
Most importantly, we really must stop Scottish MPs voting on things in England that are none of their business - our education etc. If they really want to go let them - but at the moment more English than Scots percentage-wise are relaxed about the break-up of the UK. Anyway, I resent the name "England" not appearing on some maps, and we English could exist again if United Kingdom ceased to exist. Perhaps we would need passports to go northwards, and would Scots down here need visas and other paperwork?
Barbara Hague - Petersfield
David Cameron should give us the referendum he said that we should have before he got into government and then changed his mind. I, for one, hope that Alex Salmond will give Scotland a referendum on the EU.
no name
I am so fed up about not getting a say on being in the EU, I want to scream. We would be so much better off financially, we just may be able to treat our elderly with a bit more dignity which they so deserve. As for Scotland having a referendum, but having to wait another two years (although these discussions has been going on for so long now), do these people not know whether they want in or out? As for Salmond, I feel he is just trying to get everyone's no without having to try too hard. Anyway, just for a record, I am quite happy for Scotland to leave if they want to. But am also quite happy for them to stay also.
Diane Moriarty - Uxbridge
My dictionary's definition of democracy is 'government by all the people, through elected representatives; equality of rights in society, groups etc'. Democracy means the people choose their elected leaders, trusting them to do the very best that they can for the people who elected them. It is not for our elected leaders, whose duty is to serve us and no one else, to give away our hard won and very precious freedoms to another country or state without our permission.
Glenville J Owen - Merthyr Tydfil, UK
I don't really care when Scotland votes on their referendum, I would like England to be included, then Alex Salmond's dream will come true, 70 per cent of the English people want Scottish independence. This will be their third poll given to them by the United Kingdom Parliament. When are we, the English, going to be given a referendum on an English Parliament and independence?
Stuart Eels - Chippenham
If the Scots decide to leave, I have no objection and hope the Scots In England return to their country and free up the jobs for the English. All benefits should cease and dues from the North sea drilling,which England has spent enormous sums, should be returned with a percentage of future revenue
Philip Haworth - London
The SNP were elected on a platform, which stated there would be a referendum on Scottish independence in 2014. They have never hidden that an independent Scotland is one of their major aims. Although they believe in independence, they realise that they cannot do this without the support of the majorlty of the Scottish people; hence the need for a referendum. They are neither railroading independence nor forcing it on the Scottish people. A referendum is the ultimate form of democracy; if it had been up to the Conservative Party no referendum on a Scottish government would have ever have taken place. In fact, Tony Blair only had a referendum because he was convinced that the Scottish people would not vote for a Scottish Parliament. When he was proved wrong the powers that be set up the voting system in such a way that they thought that no single party would ever have a working majority.
The victory of the SNP in winning an overall majority is remarkable and should not be underestimated. The SNP are not extreamist, nor are their leaders dictatorial quite the reverse.It has to be remembered that there is only one single Scottish Conservative MP at Westminster; David Cameron did not win an overall majority in the last UK general election and certainly has no significant support north of the border. He is being propped up by the Liberal Democrats, who have many Scottish MPs at Westminster - who will undoubtedly lose their seats at the next election for their treachery in inflicting a right wing government on the people of Scotland.
Under the present system, because of the huge difference in population - which is reflected in the number of English/Scottish seats at Westminster, Scotland is effectively disenfranchised. One of the main catalysts for independence was the premiership of Margaret Thatcher, who inflicted her policies on Scotland in spite of having no mandate or support in Scotland. This is not an anti-English vote, but a pro-Scottish vote. I cannot understand why some English people are accusing us Scots as being financial parasites one minute, then acting all offended and becoming quite racist in their anti-Scottish comments because we wish to decide on our own future. The Conservatives do not wish the Scottish people to decide their own future; neither do the Labour Party nor the Liberal Democrats; they are anti democracy because they do not want to give the people a say. This is also true of their failure to support a referendum on th EU. They spout nonsense like "it is the wrong question at the wrong time" what sort of patronising rubbish is this? Too often, our MPs forget who they are supposed to be representing and vote according to the whips instructions; this is not democracy this is conning the electorate. We need to waken up and smell the coffee [fair trade of course]. I am not a member of any political party so I do not have anyone pulling my strings when I make my honest comments.
Raymond Dick - Aberdeenshire
Bearing in mind the size of our little island, the suggestion of Scotland becoming independent is really quite ridiculous. This also applies to all the countries in the EU. All with different cultures and language - trying to be governed by people we have never seen or even heard speak. Please - somebody, someone, put an end to all this madness.
beryl shipp - Chingford, London
If you keep supporting Lab/Lib/Con, you can be assured of never having a referendum.
urquhart
Size has nothing to do with self determination; the Isle of Man is a tiny island, but it is part of the UK and still has its own parliament. The Channel Islands are part of the UK, but are virtually independent in regard to taxation etc. No country is truly independent of any other. But we can co-exist by having our right to self-determination, mutual respect and open trade with each other. Scotland does not need to be part of a Great Britain - which is no longer "great" and the "UK" or its constituant parts does not need to be part of the EU. Let the people decide in both cases - true democracy at work.
Raymond Dick - Aberdeenshire
I have escaped from a dictatorial regime - the communist bloc, where the freedom of speech and freedom from bueaucracy was non existent, and came to Britain; one of the most democratic country on earth at that time.Then in 1973, under Prime Minister Heath, we joined the common market - which I was happy about it because it meant trading between European nations. But I am afraid the EU is now no better or will not be better then the regime I escaped from. With the unelected euro-MPs and the unelected foreign judges telling us what should and shouldn't do. If David Cameron is a true Brit he should give us a referendum now.
Les Kozak - Norwich
